Hello Mr. Nouri, I hope you are well. First of all, congratulations, you have an amazing complex.

- Thank you

I think it's been about 13-14 years that you've opened the gallery, right?

The gallery has been active since 2008, so it makes it 15 years.

So it's been 15 years...

and it's been 14 years that we are in Alserkal Avenue.

You are the owner, right?

Yes, I'm what it's called founding director in English...

What was the mission behind establishing the Carbon 12 Gallery?

From the beginning, before we even own the physical space, we said to ourselves let's find some interesting artists, that have contemporary approach, and gather them here. interestingly enough, we were lucky and did not have any limitations in a way that we were able to work with German artists, American artists and Portuguese artists... and by gathering them under the same roof, the gallery was established... and it's very interesting that we exhibited artists such as Katherine Bernhardt in 2009, who, now, works with David Zwirner Gallery. Or we worked with Andre Butzer who is one of the most important contemporary artists among his generation. Fortunately, time has shown that our international approach and our choices were right.

In general, was Carbon 12 an idea that you had nurtured over time or it just happened without premeditation?

Both, I can't remember when exactly, but I think I was 25 or 26, when I first started working with artists in Iran's contemporary art scene, I mean young artists in the 1990's I recall... there were artists like Rokni Haerizadeh, Golnaz Fathi, Alireza Masoumi, Narges Hashemi... and they one by one... introduced me to one another and I was acquainted with contemporary art... and emerging artists in the contemporary art scene... and, then, little by little, I started working with Western art, because, you know... it was more familiar to me... and when me and Nadine decided to open the gallery in 2007 the idea was already shaped and nurtured in my head, because, before opening the gallery I was a collector, but a small one, who works with small numbers and I loved that and, also, in the 1990's no one was making money out of art...

Purchasing art from artists like Rokni was also odd at the time, while, buying modernists' masterpieces made more sense...

Exactly, people were more interested in buying works from Arabshahi, Zendehroudi, and Hossein Kazemi... Anyway, the human connection that we make through art was interesting for me, and it still excites me. The way you behave with artists and the way they grow and work overtime... you know...

So, in a way, you behave as a mentor, am I right?

You see, regardless of one's wishes, providing guidance and mentoring as a gallerist is inevitable, but the important thing is that the gallerist must not intervene in artist's practice. End of story...But...

- They can be mentors...

No, you can make suggestions or you can share your viewpoint with them... But we are not allowed to manipulate the artist's way of working, why? Because, for example, Nadine and I have seen, read, and done a lot, I mean conceptually that, she (Nadine), always jokes about how we can create a fake artist...and even we can promote that spurious artist, you know, like acting in a movie, where actors pretend to be someone else... But it's not part of our job. We should let the artists be... For instance, Amir Khojasteh... we cannot say (pointing to the work of the artist on the wall) hey, dear Amir, let's use a bit more of this green, please... No, let him work...and, its obvious, from his small size paintings to now the human size ones...it was the artist himself.

Let's go back to something we missed earlier, have you ever been involved in art dealing?

- Never!

So, you were just a collector that opened a gallery after some time, right?

Dear, every time I tried to work as an art dealer, the outcome of the deal is still unknown (Joking)...It's interesting, look, if you trade art with a mere focus on the market, you'll never make a good deal, you know, But, when you do your work with love and passion, and you comprehend the art completely, you'll make the best deal of your life. For example - I don't want to go into details - but it happened that we trade the same artwork for 3 to 4 times. And, every time that we sold the art to the next buyer...Our understanding of the art and the beauty of the artwork, made the fourth sale as appealing as the first time. Being a dealer is still strange to me, and no, I have not been a dealer.

So then like most of the galleries, different artists hold their shows in Carbon 12, and you get a commission, right?

Yes, almost 99.99% of the time we work in the primary market. It means that we directly transfer the work of the artist to galleries, museums, collectors or private museums. And even when we deal with our gallery’s artists, it's still considered the primary market.

Among the Iranian artists, for instance...whose markets have not been formed yet, I mean the artists who have a flexible market. Do you take them and make a monopoly contract with them?

No, in fact, we don't have such contracts with anyone, we shake hands and look into each other's eyes and that's it. The type of contract that we have is called... um...a moral contract. It's because of the sentimental nature of our job, so, if we make formal or business contracts, it will get spoiled. Of course, everything is clear, for example our consignments are clear... We know in detail what kind of paintings you have given us, the price, the format everything is clear. There is a contract, of course, on the works that we consign, but we never do ones that tending towards monopoly...

We always want and try to collaborate with top galleries, by top I don't mean rich or famous, rather, I mean those galleries that understand art, understanding art is very important to us. For example, we would be very excited if one day we could work with a New Yorkian gallery for presenting Amir Khojasteh or our Austrian artist Bernhard Buhmann who has participated in art fairs now is working with an interesting gallery in New York and also, Andre Butzer and Max Hetzler or you know artists like Anthony Akinbola -whose work is hanged over there our gallery was the first gallery that represented him, now he is working with one of Shanghai galleries, these things help us to keep the artists' market sustainable.

So, on one hand by connecting with other galleries and selling to museums, you raise the artist's market value ... that makes them sustainable subconsciously and let them go on, and, on the other hand, you have a plan to send artists from A to B. after that, in B, the artist may separate from you according to his growth ...?

it happens and it's great. There is no reason to keep working together when things don't go well. it's like couples' life, when things don't go well ...each one should seek their own happiness and thanks for mentioning that, it was a good point.This moral development in an artist is vitally important because, in the end, if we look into contemporary art with an economical approach ...We'll see that we are providing a service that belongs to commercial part of art. Artist is the supplier of the product, by this I don't mean to say that art is a product, but from a firmly economic viewpoint, it is considered one. this product is handed over to someone, therefore the person who is transferring it should be morally reliable. so this is a very important matter for us.

Now, I think the time has come to put an end to such nationalistic based comparisons, but, the circumstances that are currently dominant in Iran affect the artist's market and their moral behavior, maybe if the circumstances were different, and everything was stable, the nationality of the artist, whether he or she was Austrian, German or not, was not an important matter. but, in Iran's current conditions artists have some fears and thus behave differently, these circumstances create some opportunities for art galleries that work outside of Iran but it also creates a series of limitations...

exactly!

According to that you are an Iranian who works in the Middle East's art market, Do you focus on Iranian art?or are Austrian artists and Iranian artists equal to you?

Yes, I think this is the right thing to do. When I say that I'm an art professional ...It means that I'm a professional in art. What does professional mean? It means you pay me for this job. For example ..., Imagine ...I earn money from somewhere rather than art ... and also it's important for a professional to decide what he's going to do from the first day, If I want to show Iran's flag everywhere, I can go to the stadium and watch a soccer game, like the world cup. But, if I want to help artists like Amir [Khojasteh] to get what they deserve, I should bring them to the international scene, Because, if you only promote great artists from one nation like Iran, Austria, Germany or anywhere else in the world, You'll be like a family in which brothers and sisters marry each other and make children. The mixture is important here. The beauty of our world and art world is in this mixture, in a mixture of different topics and their ability to talk to each other ...and healthy competition in the gallery is important, for example, Amir's first show was with Philip Mueller from Austria, whom we had promoted a lot...What does it mean? It means that dear Amir it's how you can proceed ...and, he is motivated and wants to work and, it's what really matters.

When we wanted to open the gallery in 2007, I mean in Dubai because I don't know much about Iran, and it's not my area of expertise- Gallerists said to me that you are Iranian, so you have Iranian art ...and we always laugh when people say "Do you have Iranian art?" I said OKAY, if you explain what Iranian art is, I will find you one!

Now the program is interesting. For example, the last artist's program ...was post-modernist embellishment,The recent artist's program is harsh-critic post-modernist. It's the reason that they make a great program.

According to the economic situation that the Dubai's market experienced, I think they made systematic changes ...and now the situation got better ...they experienced business immigration to Dubai, Like establishing auction houses such as Christie's and Sotheby's in Dubai that now have returned to London ...and dismissed their branches in Dubai ...It was rumored that may be Dubai's market is dropping ...as a gallerist who works in Dubai ...How do you describe Dubai's art market situation? Is it dropping or growing?

Look, the story of these auction houses is very interesting... Unfortunately, as an Iranian, It was offensive to me when Iranian artists came to me and said ...Dear Kourosh, Christie's is showing my work ...So what? Is it an honor for you that Christie's is showing your work? Is this an honor? You should show your works in galleries. It was good ... It was good and dropping in the secondary market is not necessarily related to the primary market. Why? Let me explain it statistically ...

Imagine an artist who has sold 500 artworks in the past 20 years ...How many times does his works attend in the secondary market? Probably 3 times ...so ...Let's say 8 times  8...times 10 equals 80, 80 artworks.80 out of 500 "is still a minority"

Why do we focus on the secondary market? While the primary market is the important one ...Dubai's art market is very interesting ...It's an international market ...and, we never know who does what or how much money he makes and, we never know who buys what kind of artwork, and who collects it. Dubai has not yet established itself as an art market...

Does that mean there is still room for serious growth?

Oh yeah! When you compare it to Iran ... For example, In Iran in a middle-class family's house ...There are some artworks, it’s not Damien Hirst's obviously, but they have an Iranian artist's work, for example from their neighbor’s exhibitions. Look, it's in our culture, but this culture is something transient here. The 10-year visa or other options motivate people to stay longer or even think about staying permanently.

People usually buy art when they have a long-time residency. For example, when you buy an incredibly expensive apartment in New York, it means you want to live there ...and when there are art fairs such as Armory Show ...You go and visit proudly like other New Yorkers because they are New Yorkers before anything else ...you know ...and Dubai is forming this identity step by step ...

Let me ask something to see if I'm right ...One approach is to focus on tourists who stay for a short-time period, like less than 10 years ...and we can see galleries are marketing with these tourists ...as the shopping centers do ...

- Be careful! tourists are different from ...

-I mean people who stay here for less than 10 years ...

-okay ...Look, in Dubai, it was always less than 10 years ...You know what I mean ...Because this is a crossing, a passage ...But Dubai has an advantage that cannot be found anywhere else in the world ...It is very international that people come to it from all over the world ...But exactly, your understanding was very accurate and correct. It's not like saying, for example, sir, I've been living in Dubai for forty years now ...Thank God dear Carbon 12 you finally made it ...!

No, there is no such thing in Dubai yet.

About the part that you explained about the relationship with the main buyer, you said it's good to be returnable, and you make it returnable by ...for example, attending art fairs in different places ...Or connecting with the galleries that act as your business partners ...Is my impression correct?

-Yes and No. The most important thing that a person should do ...is doing it in his hometown. so...If we close our doors and say no, sir, we are waiting to go to New York's Armory show to sell ... It is disrespectful, why do I even have space here? I don't know what types of people are coming, but when I meet someone who really loves art, my attitude is always positive ...

I also tell my team that whoever comes and makes a right question, we have to give her a good time ...Let's take her nicely, give her a tour, bring her to the office, and show her artwork. In fact, being in your own space (gallery) is very important. You wanna do other projects? Okay, so much better. But, you know, when you make a good connection with someone in New York, That person gets encouraged to come to Dubai and visit your gallery. Now, you see, it's crowded here, but, there, behind that desk stand two people who do art-related work day and night.

It's not comparable with big impressive spaces. Here, you see people behind desks... we go back to the first point that I've made, which is the human connection that we make through art, and you should not eliminate this aspect from art... But, our business in Dubai is also very important. and it will remain important. You see... this artist's [pointing to Amir Khojasteh's painting] and Philip Mueller's career were shaped in Dubai... So... when you see that the buyers here are more fuss, you will think to yourself: let's sell art to Americans, who are more forward, and write the checks right away...but building your career in your own city is crucial.

Look, by asking that question I was inquiring about your marketing strategy... so, sometimes you say, OK, I have serious buyers here... because, you know, Dubai is now an important market for the Middle East... the culture is still growing, of course... I mean, if, this much work had been done in Tehran, and if the situations there, were stable, the Middle East's art market would be much forward... But, for whatever reason it didn't happen there, and Dubai is compensating for this mustiness. Anyway... alright, so your foundation and your business in Dubai are very important to you. But, because, the USA, England, and different parts of East Asia's art markets are very important, the Carbon 12 gallery is trying to expand its presence outside the region and by taking part in art fairs, it is trying to find some permanent buyers there, but it also works here... I mean, Carbon 12 focuses on both markets. Did I get what you were saying right?

This is exactly what every good gallery should do, this is a very important matter for the buyers here. If, one day, I attend the Armory show in New York, sell nothing, and bring every piece of art back with me to Dubai, if you were my imaginary costumer in Dubai, how would you feel about it? You would not take me seriously... Therefore, what happened before in the Middle East art market was a mistake... We said, OK, let's trade among each other and raise the price of a piece to 1.2 or 1.4 million... Then, the Americans and Europeans looked and said to themselves ... How is this possible?

They would not even pay 1.4 million for 85 years old [Georg] Baselitz, who has a lot more experience.These are crucial matters, and what you say is also right. We take these matters seriously. For example, we see that in the USA or London, artists like Amir Khojasteh get sold for over 15 thousand. it's good for us. We would sell that half price because we have long-term plans.

In regards to the MENA region, there are three to four countries that are very active in Arts, like Iran, Turkey, and Egypt...These activities are also visible in Dubai and Beirut.

As an Iranian Gallerist working in Dubai, what is your evaluation of the future of the Middle East art market and its artists?

Saudia Arabia is now the force in the region. Look, Whether we like it or not...

You mean in buying and collecting art or their artists?

- No, regarding their artists and the projects they run in their country. One should be modest and say well done! They have funded their artists excessively. They have hired the best directors, for their biennials., And let me tell you, No one has done such a thing in the last thirty years. Germans have done this over the course of thirty years, but Saudia Arabia is doing it every year. Yes, there is Turkey as well, which is a very progressive country in terms of culture. Iran is also very culturally progressive... But we should analyze Saudia Arabia's model in the future, because, it's impressive. Well, they have loads of money, but they can spend it elsewhere. But they upgraded their galleries, and one must say well-done.

Do you mean during Mohammed bin Salman's monarchy?

- Exactly!

- Yes, it's interesting because, besides Art, there are technological changes as well.

Okay, Thank you very much.