- Thank you for giving us your time. Well, this may be not new, but we would like to start with the explanation so that those who are not aware of the Tehran auction, would be informed. The Tehran auction has been held for fourteen times and now we are close to the fifteenth one in less than a month. What necessities made you think about establishing such an institution like the Tehran auction, with the mechanisms we see today?

- Our first motivation was to support the magazine "Honar-e-farda". A magazine that had six or seven issues published at the time and the costs suddenly increased with the increase in the price of currency, including the price of paper and printing, which suddenly tripled and we became indebted. We decided to hold an auction with the support of a number of good artists, to be able to cover the arrears as well as the costs of subsequent issues. The first and second auctions were mostly motivated by these expenses, and probably the repayment of the debts owed by Honar-e-farda Magazine. But gradually we realized another need that was already felt. And that was due to the weakness of the domestic Iranian art market, while the international market was growing. Since the Christie's Institute held its first auction in the Middle East in 2006, the price of Iranian Art works abroad had risen sharply, reaching stunning records until 2008, while domestic prices remained low.

In the early years, many looked at this price increase with disbelief assuming it was a bubble. But later they realized that these prices would continue to rise. You could still buy works inside the country, but much less than what was sold abroad. In this situation, some prominent artists, especially the friends of Christie's, suggested that if the market inside Iran is not strengthened, your international market will be threatened in the way that the price of works abroad will increase dramatically and reach staggering prices, while works can be bought at much cheaper prices in the country, and this could be considered as a negative parameter for the development of Iranian art in the long term. As a result, we decided to continue the auction. Mostly with the aim of supporting the domestic art market and expanding art exchanges in a modern approach, which could be done through the auction.

- Mr. Sami Azar, every move always has opponents and supporters. The same can be said about the auction. Sometimes its opponents increased, and another time its supporters increased, but today it has somehow been able to establish itself in the Iranian market. In any case, how much do you think these weaknesses, which you yourself mentioned to some extent, have reached their initial goals in this direction? Now that we are close to the fifteenth auction, has it been able to strengthen or make an impact in the Iranian market?

- We have been pursuing two important goals from the beginning, and so far we seem to have come a long way. The first is to strengthen the internal market, which has become so to some extent! Despite the increase in the price of foreign currencies against our national currency, many of our leading artists’ works are sold at a higher price in the country than abroad.

- Do you consider this a good thing?

- Yes this is a positive parameter! When the Tehran auction started, works of an Iranian artist, for example Massoud Arabshahi or Faramarz Pilaram and Sohrab Sepehri, could be sold abroad for two or three hundred thousand dollars. While in the country, considering the exchange rate equal to the rial at that time, one hundred thousand dollars was too much! Those who bought Iranian artists’ works abroad would later find out that they were cheaper in their own country and would look for a channel to buy them cheaper from within the country, which would mean that our international market was unreliable. Not today of course. Many of our artists' works are sold domestically in higher numbers. It may come as a surprise to you that some people buy works at auctions such as Christie's and Sotheby's hoping that one day they will sell them at Tehran Auction. This means that the price of works inside the country has increased compared to the international price level in the past. Another meaning is that the increase in the price of currency and the decrease in the price of Rials have largely reached a balance with the increase in the price of works at home, and we can buy or sell works inside or outside the country in close numbers. This balance is both

in the interest of the International Iranian Art Market and expanding the exchange of works within the country.

Our second goal was to introduce a large number of Iranian artists, especially the younger generation, who do not qualify for international auctions, to the market through the Tehran auction. The International Market of Iran includes fifty or sixty artists whose works are regularly sold at various auctions outside of Iran. The International Market is not very interested in increasing the number of artists. A large number of very good artists, especially from the younger generation and even from the previous generation, are well known in the country, but there is less opportunity to sell their works internationally. Tehran Auction firstly tries to get these people inside and later

introduces art lovers internationally. We are now introducing more than 300 artists of different generations at the Tehran auction, which is five to six times more than the number of artists in the international market. Many artists who never participated in international auctions have now reached prices that can be offered in international markets through the Tehran auction. In this regard, the Tehran auction has been able to increase the number of prominent artists in the market who can be of global interest.

- In both goals, two challenges are always raised by critics. Especially in the case of the second goal, which is to attract a wider group of audiences and, in a way, to take artists more seriously, especially the younger ones, who do not

have access to international auctions. There is a group that opines the artist himself can communicate directly with the auction, and collectors, gallery owners or dealers should not create this connection. And another group of people believe that there should be this mediation and this relationship is not straightforward at all. This may be a good thing for prominent masters, but for the younger ones, some disagree. Which of these groups do you belong to and what is your opinion?

First of all, I would like to emphasize that the statement that art work should not be presented through the artist and a gallery owner or dealer should present them at auction is not a universal requirement. International auctions do not insist on this, and perhaps if an artist introduces a landmark work, they will accept it and not refer it to a gallery.

We made this restriction in Iran with the aim of strengthening the galleries, so as not to create the impression that the Tehran auction intends to bypass the galleries and ignore their efforts. Moreover, galleries can identify artists and create a primary market for them in one step, and the auction will address its real position, which is the secondary market considering the role of the galleries in the primary market. If an artwork is presented directly to an international, this question might be raised: “How is he a prominent artist, while no gallery introduces him?”. This is a normal expectation. In fact, a well-known artist with a market whose works are being auctioned will definitely be introduced by one or more galleries in different parts of the world, and certainly an agent  will introduce that artist to buyers anywhere in the world. If the artist wants to go directly to the auction, the question might be raised whether he has a representative or not. This is less common abroad, but it is quite likely at home because the art market is young and artists from Tehran and other cities will insist on going directly to the Tehran auction. I believe that the presentation of emerging artists should be done through galleries and the auction should play its permanent role which is a secondary market allowing artists to be discovered and introduced by galleries and to be proved by Tehran auction.

- In this story, the originality of the work

is a serious issue. In the recent booklet that came out, and all previous ones, the statement made a lot of noise about the auction’s policy toward originality of works declaring that it is no longer responsible for confirming or denying the authenticity of the work. Could you explain to us why this happened? In previous years, when there was the guarantee, there were rumors also. And some works were removed in the process. Now this can increase tension and make your job harder!

- First of all, I am going to explain the position of the Tehran auction on the section related to the terms of buying and selling works, and then a more general discussion about the issue of research on the authenticity of fake works and works that may be introduced to the market. IF buyer doubts about the authenticity of work after the Tehran auction, then we will be faced with two problems: first, the contract between us and the buyer when the buyer probably hears rumors after buying the work about the authenticity of the work, and secondly, a legal dispute about the doubts on the artwork which has an owner and a buyer who claims it is not original. I must emphasize that these statements are not easy to prove. Just as you can hardly ascertain the authenticity of a work, which has been created for many years, In many cases, you can hardly prove its non-authenticity. This problem cannot be solved with the opinion of several experts, because most experts do not agree and they are very likely to make mistakes. Eventually the case has to go to a judicial authority, and the process may take several years due to the lack of the judges’ expertise. In this case, we are faced with a lawsuit that starts with the introduction of a work in the Tehran auction, but ends nowhere. Our position is: If the buyer of a work doubts the authenticity of the work after the auction through any expert or through the inference of any evaluation and expert review, and assume there are doubts on his purchased artwork, we will easily take back that work and cancel the sale.

-Does This section mention that this is not their responsibility?

But that paragraph refers to another issue that follows. Anyone who buys a work from the Tehran auction and later doubts about the authenticity of the work and convinces us or introduces any expert regardless of their credibility for the Tehran auction, who claims that the work is not original and demands to return the work or cancel the purchase, we will easily accept it. We do not even insist that the buyer might have made a mistake and do not even question the expert. We accept this because we believe artwork is a valuable commodity.

Everyone can feel free to give them back! They will be sold anyway. The owner of the work, or the Tehran auction, can sell it at a better price immediately. There is no problem. At the moment, the artworks have material and spiritual value and it is not as if the deal has been closed and the agreement is non refundable. Anyone who wants a refund, even without compelling or persuasive reasons, we are willing to take it back. Because we insist that building trust is more important rather than not canceling a few purchases. It is important that new buyers who have just started buying artworks have our solemn assurance,  and they should not think of this market as a place full of forgeries and deceitful people who want to steal and deceive buyers or take advantage of the lack of expertise of some people. No, it is not like that! Anyone who comes to the Tehran auction having doubts on the authenticity of purchased artwork, we will take it back and we will even take the responsibility of answering and convincing the owner. This has never been an issue for us. If you read other sections of the Tehran auction conditions, which unfortunately some have not read, you will notice this clearly. If you look at the last fourteen auctions and look at buyers who have occasionally returned artworks, you can easily understand that we are very determined to get artworks back because we believe the bigger profit than selling one or two artwork is building trust. completely reassuring and make everyone feel that this purchase, which may be emotionally instantaneous, is not an irreversible process.

But after returning an artwork and possibly raising doubts on its authenticity, we will be left with an artwork that has been rumored and the owner who thinks it is not true and may not be able to sell it easily after that. Because it is said that the work is not original and if he wants to sell the artwork elsewhere, these stories may seriously be damaging. Therefore, the owner may intend to sue either the Tehran auction and the person who has denied the authenticity of the artwork. This is what happens: you present a work at the Tehran  auction, the work is sold, some time later, before the buyer pays for it, or after that, doubts arise on the artwork's originality and we cancel the sale immediately and refund the agreement. Now, imagine that this sold artwork has been stigmatized as non-original -Meaning, the owner wants to ligitate a claim…

and the owner refers to us saying that he has reasons to authenticate the artwork,  in which the most important thing is that the Tehran auction have accepted this work. He says: “you have a lot of experts in the auction and also a lot of experts who are the friends and supporters of the auction, to whom you refer any work that is likely to be forged, especially the artworks that the artist is not alive.

You accept the artworks with very careful reviews. So the first reason is that you yourself accepted this work. The second reason is that someone or an expert approves of it, and the third is that I have photos showing this work hung on the wall of my house 30 years ago, which was priceless. Now with this plot, it will be very difficult for me to sell this work, you have made a financial damage and I am going to sue you”. Therefore, on the advice of Tehran auction lawyers, we think that such a claim or such a prosecution should be directed at the person who made the accusation, not the Tehran auction! We approved the work. If we did not approve it, we would not have presented it at auction!

- So the Tehran auction with this clause is pulling itself out of the middle of a fight!

- from a lawsuit that is likely to happen and not definitely happen. We want to get out of the the lawsuit filed by the owner of the work against those who have raised doubt on

the originality of the work. We won’t insist on the authenticity of the artwork and we will definitely take it back.

- So a misleading impression has been created!

- Yes! This impression was created because some people paid attention to one clause in the Tehran auction and forgot about the other clauses and were also ignorant of the process that the Tehran auction has had so far! If you were careful enough, you would understand that if anyone who buys an artwork from the Tehran auction, wants to return it for whatever reason, convincing or not, the Tehran auction will easily take the artwork back. Firstly, because we want to build trust in the market. Second, because we believe the overall credibility of the Tehran auction is more important than selling one or two artworks! And someone who has bought an artwork and regretted it, may buy 10 more works later. We do not want to stop him from buying more artworks and taking them out of the market. So we easily accept the returned artwork. And secondly because we think an artwork  is a precious item. The precious heritage of an artist. If one does not want it, there must be others who want it, and a valuable artwork will always have its own enthusiasts. The artwork will not be a burden at all. It has dignity and if someone does not want it, we can easily take it back and discuss with the owner of the artwork on how to sell the work better and at a more appropriate time. We take back the work and immediately resolve the financial issue with the buyer of the artwork. But the owner may want to prosecute the claim against the work. This is his right! He also has reasons and one of the reasons is us. We support the owner in any expert review. And we will declare that we also confirm the authenticity of the work based on the expertise we have. If we had doubts, even one percent, we would not accept it. So he wants to pursue the matter, and we understand that this prosecution should not address us, but should target those who have made this claim against the artwork explaining that these artworks were on display for several days, the catalogs of the artworks were available to everyone almost a month ago, there was enough opportunity for review and anyone could do enough research, but now after that he has snapped the artwork and seized the opportunity from others to buy it, have come to the conclusion that the work is not original and have decided to return it! We take back the work and will definitely refund the agreement. But the owner of the artwork will probably not back down and the person who raised these doubts will probably be prosecuted. At this point we want to avoid any legal dispute. In response to your question, let me add that the owner has put an artwork up for auction in Tehran against which such allegations are being made. The buyer also intended to buy one or two works, which raised doubts. We intend to sell 80 to 100 percent of the artworks in each auction. If we want to get involved in lawsuits after every auction, we have to spend most of our time in court. If we hold two or three auctions a year and some of these issues are raised, our energy will be wasted in the courts to defend an artwork, defend the selection of an artwork in the Tehran auction, restore the rights of the owner of the artwork and provide convincing explanations for the buyer of the artwork or the judge or anyone else. In order to get ourselves out of this lawsuit and declare that anyone is allowed to file any lawsuit against anyone who raises

a doubt, it is better for us to do our job in the Tehran auction. And focus on what we have done so far, not what others expect of us.

- But this does not deny the fact that when the auction’s experts have accepted a work means that the auction confirms that this work is original, and therefore guarantees the return in case of defect, and at the same time supports the person who submitted the artwork.

Yes. It's very simple. We take back any artwork that has any defects easily and without claiming any damage and return it to the owner. But if the owner of the artwork wants to file a lawsuit, this lawsuit should not be against us because we have approved the artwork before. The lawsuit should be directed at those who raised these doubts.

That is, the buyer of the artwork or the experts who have conveyed such an opinion to the buyer. Secondly, we take the side of the owner of the artwork and announce that the work is approved by us. And in every expert forum, we are ready to present our arguments about the authenticity of the work.

- Two issues are mentioned in this paragraph, one is authenticity and the other is pricing. Especially in the case of authenticity, what process does the auction itself go through to obtain an argument on a painting or an artwork and accept it.

- For artists who are alive, this is very simple. We refer directly to the artist and ask him. Even if the artist is not in Iran, we can find the artist anywhere in the world. They often have a friendly relationship with us and when we visit them, they tell us their official opinion. for artists who are not alive, we try to ask experts who we believe have a more credible opinion and those who have artistic awareness, who have been close to the artist or his friends. Sometimes the artist's family does not know much about the accuracy of some artworks because they have been away from the artist for a long time. For example, the artist's son has been studying in another country for many years and he does not know whether that artist has created artwork during a particular period of his career or not. The artist's family does not always have a credible vote in all cases, but in some cases

it does. Some artists have had close relationship with their families, and the opinion of the artist's family is valid for us.

- Can foundations based on families also be a reliable source?

- Yes! The good thing about foundations is that they can give us a formal opinion. We always show the artworks to the experts, artist friends and family before we put it on the auction list, and we accept the artwork with their approval. We rely very little on our own expert opinion. However, all these years, we have seen many works by different artists, both original and even forged, and the Tehran auction team is aware of them to some extent.

But there are cases where the authenticity of the artwork may not be clear to us and we need to discuss it with certain people. We almost know to whom to refer the artwork of each artist. And we are sure about the most credible person to comment on artworks. Sometimes a person's opinion can be quite decisive for us. But sometimes we have to ask a few people. Because one person's opinion may not be 100 percent enlightening, we refer to two or three people. But sometimes with all the reviews, we can not reach a 100 percent opinion. Our strategy is: we will not auction works that are 99 percent original. The work must be 100% original in our opinion.

That is, we place a high value on this aspect. Because based on experience, when an artwork is 99 percent original, it later becomes clear that 1 percent is more likely than that 99 percent. Furthermore, we are not content with 100% originality of the work based on the opinion of experts, but also with the opinion of public opinion. There have been cases where it has been proved that the artwork is the original, but we had this sense that there can be doubts about the artwork and not everyone could be convinced. so, if people raise doubts about the artwork, we can not convince them. Therefore, we did not put that work up for auction despite our definite opinion. Because for us, it is not just reassurance for ourselves, but also reassurance for the auction audience. Therefore, if an artwork in our opinion is definitely original but indefensible, and we can not absolutely deny the existing doubts and convince everyone, we will not put that work up for auction. So we bring in a work that, first, we ourselves and second, the artistic community, are confident about. There are a lot of artworks waiting to be accepted to the Tehran auction, and we do not insist on auctioning works that may have doubts and suspicions about them. We accept a work that we are absolutely sure of. Of course, this does not mean that we are not wrong and that we can not miss a thing. We even had an artwork that seemed to be 100 percent reliable, and it was introduced by a very reliable person ...

- Can even this reliable person be an artist himself? Or do you think that an artist ..?

- No, no, in our opinion, if the artist himself approves a work, there is no doubt. the artist's signature and its ownership is important for us. If the artist says: “this is my work”, even if it was created by his assistant, we consider it the artwork of the artist. Especially based on contemporary art definitions, an artwork can be an artist's idea produced by another person as an executor. And if the artist - like the artworks of Ms. Monir Farmanfarmaian, was created by another person, we know that it was the usual method of the artist, and therefore we do not see any problem in the work being created by someone else. In our opinion, the artwork belongs to the artist. But if some person represents some artworks and we do not even

have doubts about those persons, there can still be a possibility that they may have made a mistake. That completely credible person also bought the artwork from elsewhere, who thought it was authentic there, but later it became clear that there were doubts. So I do not want to argue that we never make a mistake as a definite position. But I want to insist that our research is very accurate. There is no reason for us to auction a work that is questionable and could call the whole auction into question. Among the 100 works we introduce, insisting on a work that can cause flaws and jeopardize the overall auction and sales reputation is completely illogical to us, and it is much easier to put it aside. As a result, the work we put up for auction is a work that is both original for us  and convincing to others, and we…

- In this path, in the years that you held the auction, is there a blacklist? From those who have introduced such works to it or  jeopardized the auction?

- We do not have a blacklist.

- I mean, from the dealers, collectors or galleries that you felt during these years, their artworks were not always original!

- No, I do not think that if someone insists on selling us something that is not original, we think that person has taken the wrong approach. It is better for him to sell the work through other channels that are not under the microscope, especially the media. You see, we think that if someone is aware that the artwork is not original, he will not come to us.

- Because the auction is under the microscope?

- Yes! Because, first of all, he knows that the auction is very careful, very obsessive and very sensitive. And then gives the artwork to other experts. When the work enters the auction, it is judged by a wide range of people. And it is even possible that the work will be sold and we will give the money to that person, but after a while someone will come and claim that this work is not original and I want to return it and we will ask that person to return the money. So why should people come to the auction when there are simpler ways that are not monitored by the media or other experts and are not so sensitive to an art community! He can easily sell his artwork through private channels. Auction is basically created to eliminate suspicious private sales  and instead, offer transparent and public sales that can be criticized. And people who want to sell an artwork that they know is questionable will certainly not sell it in the clearest, most supervised, and most sensitive place possible. They sell the artwork privately and even at a very good price. No one will notice and they are more comfortable, so we never get to a blacklist in which a person repeatedly decides to sell artworks that he thinks are not original. Such a person does not come to us at all. It is possible that someone may introduce an artwork and some time later we discover that it is not the original artwork, while the person himself was not aware of that. He himself probably bought the work from somewhere else. And even if someone does it once, it will not be blacklisted at once, and we assume that the person probably introduced a forged artwork to us indeliberately. in the end, we will not accept the work. That is why we have no blacklist. We do not get many references to fake works, and if sometimes an artwork comes and we doubt its authenticity, we do not think it is a forged one, but we think that we can not convince everyone that it is the original artwork. And this does not mean that we insist on a forgery.